'Gandhi's dream of India has slowly gone to pieces on certain issues...we all should come together...India wants a dream'
Updated: Jul 05, 2005 at 0000 hrs IST
: Vishwanath Pratap Singh started many remarkable things. One, he ended one-party rule. Two, he ensured that whoever has to rule Delhi has to give a say to Patna, Lucknow, Hyderabad and Bangalore. Third, with the help of a man called Mandal, he started a process of social and political engineering that still goes on.When he walked out of Rajiv Gandhi's Cabinet on the Bofors issue, he set in motion a set of events which historians will judge for years to come. He spoke with Shekhar Gupta, Editor-in Chief, The Indian Express, on NDTV 24X7's Walk the Talk. Excerpts:
Let me use the phrase that Vajpayee used about himself: 'Never tired, never retired.' You fought sickness, you fought political wild-erness, but you've always been, somehow, at the centrestage.
Somehow, I never get bored in life.
So, not tired, not retired, not bored?
Yes. And I always find something that totally absorbs me and because I am totally absorbed, much of my worries just vanish.
Worries about health?
Oneself.
But even in terms of health and your own sort of worries, it looks like they are much less now than they were two or three years back. All of your friends and admirers are happy, like me, but you have brought about a remarkable turnaround in your own outlook.
One thing I have found most useful is acceptance. Acceptance that it's not going to change. For instance, I have this kidney failure and also multiple myloma, which is malignant. I know they are not going to be cured.
Is it cancer?
Yes. It is cancer. I know my days are not many. But if I spend them with a long face, then whatever I've got is lost. Why lose what little I have? In the morning, when I get up and feel no pain in my body, I look at myself in the mirror and say: 'I am alive, so I'll enjoy this state of health.' And that is how it is. But if I were grumbling: 'Had I not been ill, I would have been going around, would have been doing this, I would have been doing that,' then one is lost.
Your disease and political decline happened around the same time. Was one a consequence of the other?
No, I don't think so. Right up to 1996, I was active, you know, the prime ministership was half-offered to me in 1996. And somehow, I've been in politics anyway, whether it was bringing down the BJP government in 13 days. That way, something or the other has always engaged me. But now, it is not in the formal political sense of being a party member or campaigning.
But that was a remarkable change, from Rajiv Gandhi being your political rival No 1 to the BJP becoming your political enemy No 1. With Rajiv Gandhi, at least, you fought for power. With the BJP, you are only fighting to bring them down, to keep them out of power. It's a kind of negative arrangement.
Well, disease is also a negative engagement, but it is necessary.
Let me read between the lines. Are you trying to say that the BJP is like a disease?
Not in the sense, personally. I know many of their leaders and have got very good relations with them, and I have no personal animosity. But it is their hate agenda at the ground level—hate towards the minorities, particularly the Muslims. If they can drop that agenda, they become a normal party. What I find is that it's so difficult for them that it comes (up) over and over again. And I don't think it's good for the country.
Can they drop their agenda? Are they capable? Their leaders?
It's difficult. Because right from their RSS shakha, their mental psyche is made up like that. And whatever the top leaders may say, at the ground level what happens, everybody knows. But still, one can wish.
But you know these senior leaders. Mr Vajpayee, Mr Advani, Mr Murli Manohar Joshi — he's from your state.
No, senior leaders are alright.
But do they understand what you are saying?
Even if they understand, they are in a set-up where they can't do anything.
But when did you come to the conclusion that Rajiv and Bofors were a lesser enemy or lesser target than the BJP?
Well, Rajiv and I fought each other in the elections... But after his death, I never raised the issue.
But it was a very bitter election. I remember, I came to cover your by-election in Allahabad in 1988... I was 17 years younger, even I was having a tough time following you. It was a very hot summer...you were so motivated and all the rhetoric was anti-Rajiv: corruption, personal. How did you and Rajiv relate to each other after that election?
I never made a personal charge against him. I made many charges of lapses as a government head but I didn't make a personal charge. After that, it was on him. On the Kashmir issue, I'd invited him for dinner, and on a few more issues, we had a one-to-one talk.
Was there bitterness?
No. That way, he was very sophisticated and polished.
But did he never ask you why you did this? Do you really believe I made money from Bofors?
No, he didn't do that.
But did you believe he made money in Bofors?
Well, I never made that charge. What I had said was that the government is covering up and making wrong statements. And there is no reason why a government should go on making and revising its statements, unless there is a cover-up. I went only to that extent.
But knowing Rajiv, you've known him very well. He was also a friend of yours. Do you think he was the kind of person who could have made money out of a defence deal? Give me your honest answer.
I was a great admirer of his and virtually saw no fault in him. And I used to fight with my friends that he was a better leader than Indira Gandhi. That was my state of mind. The differences arose not on Bofors, it was on the HDW submarine. I got a telegram on my desk from our Ambassador in Germany that there were commissions in this by Indian agents. I reported it to Rajiv and then ordered an enquiry. That led to differences and I resigned from the government.
But now it has been more than a decade and-a-half. Do you have any regrets that had you not done it, may be Rajiv would have been feeling better alive today? Because the Bofors charge will stick forever.
Well, I think we fought each other very honestly. He did what he believed at that time and I did what I really believed. And it was an honest fight from both sides. In what each of us believed. Now I remember, it was Bimal Jalan. Now I can speak out because he is not a government official. He came to me ...and he said that you two should not part—Rajiv and you.
Oh, he came to advise you?
Yes. I told him how can I alone matter. He said there will be a big impact. Now, looking back, he was very right. It did have some impact.
The idea of putting a dead Rajiv Gandhi's name in the Bofors chargesheet...
That should not have been done. That, the BJP should not have done.
It is something that sounds cussed to me.
It is not in our Indian culture to make charges against those who cannot reply....
So, you are willing to forgive and forget on Bofors after Rajiv Gandhi passed away?
After that, I never raised the issue, unless somebody pointedly put it to me. I never, on my own, raised it, unless I was cornered.
And when you met Sonia Gandhi for the first time after the last election, was the ghost of Bofors hovering in the room?
No, she was very good to me, very gracious.
Nobody imagined that you and Sonia would strike such a warm rapport.
I think when I decided to support the Congress, I didn't negotiate. I didn't even talk to any Congress leader. I thought it was in the interest of the country that without the Congress, we can't dislodge the BJP. So, I decided to support it. And I think she believed that my support to the Congress was genuine, based on my own principles and conviction.
How would it be to compare, as a leader and politician, Indiraji and Rajiv? You worked with both of them. They were your mentors in many ways.
Yes, of course. Indiraji had more experience than him. She was with Jawaharlalji. The grooming that she had, Rajiv did not have. Then, she was in the freedom struggle. Rajiv was modern, dynamic and a very polite person.
It's a tragedy he died very young.
That is a different thing. But his presence in the Indian polity would have been a positive thing for the country.
And how do you compare Sonia with him?
Sonia has now shown much political talent, especially against the odds she has fought —of language, of being foreign-born. Amidst all these handicaps, she has been able to lead her party and has taken very wise decisions.
Can you think of one remarkable difference that makes her different from Rajiv and Indira?
Well, principles of leadership are usually the same. So, it is the capacity to motivate and inspire.
It is very strong in her.
So long as she can hold the Congress party and lead it and motivate it, that's one thing that each leader has.
What is that one thing that she has?
I think she has been able to hold the party which was disintegrating. She has been able to form a government. She was wise enough to not accept the prime ministership. Many of her decisions and interventions, I think her sensitivities are correct.
In fact, I think that sets her apart. That is what got her so much good press. Did she surprise you by saying no to prime ministership?
Well, I got an inkling a little before others got it.
So she took you into confidence?
I think she would have taken all the important people (into confidence). At the same time, Karunanidhi would have also been briefed.
But for Mr VP Singh to be among those important people is a big change for Indian politics.
I don't know. But anyway, the very fact that she took us in confidence about it, also personally for me, is an expression of trust.
Also, many of us noticed that that warmth and trust was not only between you and her but between you and the family.
Well, I always respect and regard them as a family and owe so much to Indiraji.
That is so remarkable because that family also doesn't forgive easily. They haven't forgiven most others who were involved in Bofors on the other side but you are an exception.
I don't know, but the warmth and trust they have shown is certainly a thing of value for me.
Don't you think the time has now come for senior leaders from all parties to get together and end this probe culture?
Not only the probe, I think we should all come together because we have to dream India once again. Gandhi gave us a dream of India. There was a consensus on that dream. Now that has slowly gone to pieces on certain issues. All should come together and on certain issues, India wants a dream.
So will you take the lead in doing that because many of them are older than you but you are distanced from politics, you might have some moral....
I don't know whether I can take the lead, but any initiative on this part, I'd certainly want to share.
You have had a remarkable government supported by both the Left and the BJP. Many people don't remember that now.
Well, I knew it the day I took oath that this experiment is like achieving the sun's temperature in a lab, which cannot be for a long time. The day I was taking oath, I had given my government two years. But then the tape was put into fast forward and it became one year. So, that was no surprise for that government. That had to go. There were too many contradictions.
But what was it like to have the Left on one side and the BJP on the other?
I did not have any problems. Administratively, I had no problem with the BJP.
So that is not something that the Left wants to be reminded of now?
No.
The secret meetings that Jyoti Basu and Advaniji used to have in Viren Shah's house.
There used to be a meeting between the Left and BJP in my house every Tuesday. Dinner meetings. I had no pressure. I was one prime minister of a coalition where the partners did not put any pressure.
But now you see the Left almost treating the BJP as untouchables, this never happened in our politics.
Really, after Gujarat.
And when the Congress was the enemy, the Left had no problems making common calls to the BJP in Punjab, at the Centre.
After Gujarat, even I have hardened my view of the BJP. Though personally, I know Atalji, I know Advaniji, I know Shekhawatji. We communicate also at times....
In fact, we think that is a very positive feature of our politics. For example, do you believe that Vajpayeeji advised Sonia not to accept prime ministership?
I think it came on her own and the family.
Not that he also advised her.
They were demanding it, so what was the advice? BJP was demanding it.
And now, to quote one of your favourite lines: When Laloo got elected in Bihar the second time, you said 'Bihar is my laboratory for social change.' How is the change going? Do you now need new chemicals and new burners?
I think the idea was to get (in) all deprived sections, which are mainly in our society. When we see historically, we can understand this need of social justice in our context, not in abstract. The Supreme Court said if victimisation is on the basis of birth, relief also has to come by birth, only then the victims will be identified.
But has the experiment gone wrong now?
It has derailed in the sense that it was a concept of getting all the deprived sections together, cutting across caste lines, including the poorer or the upper castes, because we demanded 10% for the upper castes also. We made a demand. It was part of our psyche. It has derailed now into my caste, plus the minority. So it has degenerated.
Do you have any regrets that this has now become so casteist. Do you see this rolling back now?
No, I don't have regrets in this sense that it was a constitutional obligation. Mandal has been accepted by the Supreme Court. It has been accepted by all the parties.
Do you see any correction coming in now? Developments?
It will. But spreading it to the voting area, I don't think, is good.
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